★ Total Church Interview in the Briefing
May 5th, 2008 by Ben
Total Church by Steve Timmis and Tim Chester is the latest thing from abroad in Christian circles to hit our shores. I haven’t read the book yet, but we have some good friends, Row and Na, who spent some time with some of the Crowded House gang over the summer. They came back really excited about what those churches are like and keen to explore more.
The book has been pretty widely circulated in Sydney thus far, and now The Briefing has done an issue on ‘doing church’ and the theology and ideas in the book.
You can read the introduction to the book on Tim Chester’s blog and hear him explain the motivation for writing the book and their aims in this video (watch his shirt go from bone dry to Wet in 1min 35 - and then watch it again to hear what he actually says).
One of the great features in the new Briefing is an email conversation between Tony Payne & Simon Flinders in Sydney, and Steve Timmis in the UK. The Aussie guys are extremely positive about the book and both indicate that they have been personally challenged by it, in terms of the thinking about church, hospitality, the ministry ‘day off’, and clearly articulating some of the thoughts they had already been thinking.
There are several interesting issues that come up. The first is the meaning of ‘church’ and the meaning of ‘community’. Those in the Sydney Diocese have been blessed by the work of Broughton Knox and Donald Robinson on what church is. Their analysis of Scripture indicated that there are only really two ways you can talk about the church of Jesus Christ:
- the local church, meeting together in a particular geographical area, who are together the full body of Christ, and
- the heavenly church which exists now, consisting of all the saints, surrounding the throne of God in heaven.
This view does a massive amount of work for us as evangelicals. For example, it combats the Roman Catholic view that the local church is a manifestation of the universal church, governed by the Pope. Local churches aren’t part of the body of Christ, they are the body of Christ.
So when Tim and Steve start talking about ‘church’ and ‘community’, they are speaking into a context in Sydney where the significant thinking that has been done is being practised in churches (though many of us in the congregations aren’t aware of it). My point is, it’s not as though we’ve never though about these issues, and that’s why it’s a big deal when people in Sydney (people who are well versed in what church is, biblically), sit up and pay attention to this stuff. And Tony and Simon explore the issue of church and community with Steve, suggesting that he may use the terms more loosely than Scripture.
Another issue is the relationship (no pun intended) between the Trinity and church. This is, to quote Mugatu, “so hot right now”. Theologians like Colin Gunton (died 2003) and others have reinvigorated trinitarian discussions, in part, by arguing strongly that what God is is persons-in-communion. There is no ‘Godness’ behind the persons of the Trinity living in relationship. This isn’t a new thought (the Cap. Daddys were on it), but it’s been part of a flourishing of trinitarian theology and a lot of discussion as to what the life and nature of the Trinity implies for our relationships, particularly in church.
This kind of thing is discussed in the email exchange and Steve himself says that he’s excited when people challenge the Crowded House guys on theological grounds, rather than just asking questions about whether you have to ask the elders’ permission to buy a new car (you don’t). This means that the article gets down to some real meat and potatoes, rather than just dealing with the questions everyone’s asking. The answers to these questions will be the decider for many in Sydney, as to whether the Total Church model is embraced or dropped like a stinky baby.
In my mind, one of the reasons why this is getting a good hearing over here (which is good), is that we all want authentic relationships at church (if you’ll excuse my use of that over-used word). Are my relationships with people at church any good? Am I really sharing my life with them - are we carrying each others’ burdens? Do I love them and get opportunities to show that love other than when they have a baby and I make them a meal?
For our part, Sally and I want to have more people over for meals and hanging out. Not for dinner parties, not a big deal, just having people over for some leftovers, eating together because it’s easy and because we enjoy it. That’s really attractive and sounds like the sort of relationships I want to encourage.
What do you think - have you read Total Church and want in?
Hey Ben good to hear your thoughts. I wonder whether there is a bit of semanitc bungling happening in the whole ecclesia / community thing, but the relationship between Trinity and Church is interesting. Having spent some time with Steve, I noted that he stresses that the community gathers, but the community is so much more than a gathering- it is a whole identity centred shaped and directed in / through the gospel. what is so refreshing about this stuff is that it is a call to live out the dual fidelities of 1. believing and proclaiming the gospel, 2. identifying with, belonging to and living as the people of God. so the gospel community is fundamentally about discipleship and mission, and discipleship and mission are done in the context of community. Church is central to mission because it is both the agent and goal of God’s sovereign work in the world.
its so 16th century! Living in Christ by faith and in my neighbour through love
the other thing that the whole TC paradigm challenges is what really attracts? buildings bodies budgets big preachers - or the powerful word lived out in the lives of God’s people?
Glad you enjoyed the read !
ps we Sydney Anglicans are a suspicious bunch at times -
G’day, Shane.
Thanks for commenting, mate. It don’t doubt that sematics could be a problem in this TC ‘conversation’, although I’m okay about that. I really appreciate (as I may have mentioned above) that Steve and Tim are keen to engage at the theological level. For me, anyone who proposes a new way of ‘doing church’ without presenting a clear ecclesiology is not really worth listening too. When it gets to that point, it’s all ‘buildings, bodies, budgets, big preachers’!
I must confess I haven’t read TC yet, but I’m very keen to hear what S and T think about the purpose of church. Some of the ‘new’ missional models seem to treat the church as a means to an end: bringing believers into the kingdom. Whereas I see the church as very much an (eschatological) end in itself.
And regarding your PS, I think it’s one of the best and worst things about SydAngs!
I think you are right about so called missional models that see the church merely as a means to an end, yet there is also the danger of seeing the church only as the end. Neither seem to do justice to a biblical eschatology that places the people of God as both the heavenly end time gathering as well as God’s agent of blessing and gathering the nations through the gospel proclamation. Waht i wonder is how much do we veiw the local gathering of the elect as a sign and foretaste of the coming new creation?